Trading Shots: Does MMA create violent people?

In this week’s Trading Shots, former UFC/WEC fighter Danny Downes joins MMAjunkie columnist Ben Fowlkes to discuss violence outside the cage, and what role our sport plays in that, if any.

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Downes: Ben, we all know that you make a living covering fighters, but what do you really think of them? You know, as a group in general?

I ask because of two unfortunate stories that came out this week. One involves the always controversial War Machine and an alleged Las Vegas altercation. The other involves a domestic violence situation with ex-UFC featherweight Josh Grispi.

When I first told my parents that I wanted to compete in MMA, they had a number of objections. There were the typical concerns about safety and if I would still finish my education, but one from my dad really stuck out to me. He said that he didn’t want me to become a fighter because, “It will make you a violent person.” Do you think he was on to something?

Fowlkes: All my experiences with martial arts and martial artists has generally led me to believe in the conventional wisdom that says the people who really can fight are also the people least likely to look for opportunities to fight. Most pro fighters I know would never beat up a civilian, especially for free. But then, you get one or two bad apples, and the next thing you know you’re turning on Nancy Grace to hear her decry the scourge of mixed martial arts.

But, whether it’s Mr. Grispi or Mr. Machine, why are we asking if MMA has made them violent people instead of asking if they were only attracted to MMA in the first place because they were violent people? Seriously, you’ve seen War Machine’s YouTube rants, right? You think that guy was choosing between a career as a pro fighter and one as the owner of a chain of dry cleaners? Couldn’t this just be a sport, not unlike American football, which attracts a certain violent element by its very nature? And if it is that type of sport, wouldn’t it be reasonable to think that maybe some of those people will use the martial arts as a way to “work through” their issues — a term both Julie Kedzie and Kyle Kingsbury used when explaining the motivation for their respective retirements from active competition — while others will stay angry and unfit for decent society?

Downes: Whether MMA creates a predilection toward violence or simply attracts violent people, don’t we essentially end up with same result? Either way, it’s a sport populated with violent individuals. War Machine and Grispi could simply be aberrations. Whether you’re an accountant or a police officer, there will be good guys (and girls) and bad ones. I think this discussion ultimately leads to how we view the violence in the sport as a whole.

I never considered myself a violent person. The only unsanctioned fight I’ve ever had was in the sixth grade. By design, though, MMA is a sport based on committing violent acts toward another individual. Now, I never really thought of it in that manner. I logically knew that punching and kicking a person were physical assaults, but I suppose I didn’t attach emotional weight to them. They were just means to an end. I was was trying to do techniques that would hurt an individual, but I wasn’t trying to hurt him. That’s how a lot of fighters view the profession. If you break somebody’s arm or send him to the hospital, we act like we didn’t mean for that to happen even though we clearly trained for years to get those capabilities.

Just as militaries have depersonalized war, fighters depersonalize the things they do inside the cage. All those punches, kicks and slams add up. They could have longterm consequences on another person’s life. Saying “I didn’t mean to” doesn’t really absolve yourself of responsibility, does it? How do we reconcile our MMA blood lust while participating in a civil society?

Fowlkes: This reminds me of the argument put forth by MMA’s old foe Bob Reilly, the New York State Assemblyman who once battled against the sport’s legalization by accusing it of, among other things, turning kids who watched it into armbar-happy menaces to society. He was right that the techniques seen in MMA fights would be harmful if applied haphazardly on the playground. Then again, the same is true of what you see in a typical football or hockey game. You want to talk about depersonalizing violence? Add a ball and a clock and some safety equipment, and suddenly very violent acts start to look like a sport when you squint at them right.

But I don’t think that explains Grispi or War Machine any more than football explains Ray Rice. Sports are the reason we hear about these incidents, but not the reason they happen. Especially with MMA, we have to consider the low barrier for entry when we talk about the criminals in our midst. MMA fighters don’t come up through college MMA programs, don’t have teams scrutinizing their character and life choices to assess the potential risk of signing them, none of that. If they show up at the gym, learn the moves and raise their hand when the coach asks who wants to fight at the next local show, they’re fighters. We’ve seen how little vetting most promoters do. Maybe it shouldn’t surprise us that some thugs slip through the cracks.

But the question we started with was, can the sport make me people violent? What I wonder is, can it make them anything they weren’t already on their way to becoming? How about you, Danny? Did MMA make you anything in particular?

Downes: I’d like to think that it gave me an outlet. Some people go for a run to relieve stress; I just happened to put on boxing gloves. As an 18-year-old kid who just started, I probably talked about it too much and acted like a bigger deal than I was, but that’s most college freshmen. Like any adult, though, I eventually matured and saw MMA in a different light. It wasn’t about learning how to fight. It was more than that.

I’m sure my view of my time in MMA will change and develop as I get older, but right now I think that it was a positive force in my life. We often hear, “Sports don’t create character – they reveal it.” I don’t necessarily agree. MMA training and fights put me in situations that I never would have experienced in the everyday world. I pushed myself to the brink mentally, physically and emotionally. I didn’t always come out on the winning end, but I still had success.

Could I have achieved the same results from joining a CrossFit gym? I don’t think so. I could have learned similar lessons, but nothing compares to fighting. Saying that MMA, football or any other activity can’t make a person something they weren’t already on their way to becoming is a level of predestination that I can’t support.

In my case, MMA made me a better person. MMA saved my former teammate Chico Camus from running with gangs. If we can admit that MMA can be a force for good in someone’s life, don’t we have to allow for the possibility that the converse can happen? Then again, maybe this is another case of MMA exceptionalism. Maybe I’m just another former fighter elevating his career choice above other pursuits to justify his career choice. Then again, maybe I’m right.

Fowlkes: OK, you’ve got a point there. If I’m willing to admit that MMA can change someone for the better – and I am – then I have to admit that it’s at least possible that it can work the same way in the other direction. I just don’t think that’s what’s happening here.

Think about what makes someone, in our view, a “violent person.” It’s usually not how skilled they are in the application of violence, but how quickly they reach for it as a solution to every problem. I can’t say it’s not possible that all this MMA training only prepares people to think of a violent response as the appropriate one in every situation, but that seems way more like a defect of character than like something you learn in a gym.

Both Grispi and War Machine stand accused of attacking the women in their lives. You think as they were doing that, they were drawing upon their years of hitting pads and learning the finer points of technical grappling? Or is it more likely that they were just in the midst of rage-induced freak-outs, which they never learned how to properly manage like a damn adult human being?

The problem with those guys isn’t physical ability or learned skill – it’s choices. It’s not that they know how to fight, but that they don’t know how to think. I doubt that’s a result of MMA, though I can’t say it’s impossible.

What I can say is that if this is the problem, this sport that provides an outlet for many angry, aggressive people to transform themselves through discipline and the emotional crucibles that come with training and fighting, what’s the alternative? Because I look around at the world we live in, Danny, and it doesn’t seem like we’re anywhere close to ceasing the manufacture of angry, aggressive people.

Ben Fowlkes is MMAjunkie and USA TODAY’s MMA columnist. Danny Downes, a retired UFC and WEC fighter, is an MMAjunkie contributor who also writes for UFC.com and UFC 360. Follow them on twitter at @benfowlkesMMA and @dannyboydownes.